148655-will-there-ever-be-10-man-raid-content
Content ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- I am suddenly very interested in this. | |} ---- ---- So true. Game population is no reason to go lower than the current raid size and creating 10 man raids in addition to the 20s creates nothing but problems. It is delusional to believe that comparable balancing between the two sizes would be possible, so 10 mans will just *cupcake* up the game in the medium/long term. | |} ---- ---- ---- You have to admire the blind stupidity of the elitist attitude, be against things for no sane reason! The other night my guild went to raid, not enough people back from holidays, we really could have done with some 10 man DS raid difficulty content. Instead those that were on quickly logged off when we called it because bar grinding glory for rune bags, there's nothing else for raiders to really do apart from raid. | |} ---- What does that have to do with elitism? Raiding in Wildstar is "perfectly" tuned for 20 people, and is quite fun. As I posted above, you do not need even 20 people. We dived yesterday into Genetic Archives again and cleared the entire first floor with 15 people. It can even be done with less if people are on the ball. I really don't want to see 10man versions of the current raids.I t will take away soo much of the fun mechanics and challenges that require the 20man setup. As well as the challenge a raid leader has for organising 20 people. And yes it sucks when not enough people show up, but there's ways around that problem. | |} ---- Not to sure about that. The reason why almost nobody does it, is because the rewards do not meet the difficulty. That boss is decevingly hard for people who go at it the first times. | |} ---- To clarify, I'm not really fussed about seeing 10 man versions of the current raids, would be more than happy to see new 10 man raids. I have nfi why the "boss in a box" they added wasn't a 10 man. Nobody does it, but if it was a 10 man you can bet more would. Edited January 4, 2016 by H3rboss | |} ---- You really don't understand the raiding scene if you think 20 people doing it was the cause of no one doing the boss in the box. Normal mode is for after Ohmna and before DS and Hardmode is for after Avatus. So reason no one does normal, is poeple rather push into DS. Hardmode is hard. And guilds that have killed Avatus are doing it, but they still devote time to clearing DS. You can have everyone have bis, which is needed for hardmentors, and you will still do DS because of the Pink. Also, the loot for boss in the box is meh. Sure the gadgets are bis for hardmentors and the runesets are good, but the problem with the runesets is they drop random stat set. So you will see a blah blah set of life steal or health. What dps is going to take health? Now for the 10man aspect, I am going to argue against this. Getting 10 people together is easier than 20 sure, but the product that would be produced is meh. There are so many problems with 10 man content. -You will see once again problems with doing 10 man raids and going to a 20man format. Just like going from 20>40 caused problems. It's comes down to sure in the same guild, but you usually have "teams" and if one team does better than another, can cause problems. So say you mix it up every week, well, someone will get frustrated that they cleared x boss last week but cant come close the following. It causes strife in guild. Rather just have one group doing one thing. -Producing content for 10 people and 20 people would make the raids completly different so would have to have resources spent for both. They already have issues with releasing content in a timely manner already, why add on to it? -Balancing the raid are going to be way harder. Not only class balance but encounter balance and loot balance. You won't be able to do SD at all with 10man. 3 tanks, 3 healers, 4 dps? So 2 dps on each side? Not only balancing the encounters for 10 would decrease the raid balance. -Fun will decrease imo, see point above about SD. 20 people is a good balance point for encounters and with tanks/healers/dps and how to split up raids and have different bosses or events or rooms. If having problems getting 20, well, either try to recruit harder or merge with another guild or pug the last spots. I think there are way more issues to deal with first before introducing a 10man content. Idk, I think 10 mans are just small group content, which 5 mans can do. 20 man are raids, are get a bunch of people and down things. Why I liked 40 man better than 20, but headache of getting 40 people together was way more challenging than 20. Actually, TimeTravel has came out and said that first would do a flex if they did change things. Edited January 4, 2016 by Orrestes | |} ---- Can be done with 8 people if you have the gear to meet the DPS check of killing Kuralak before her 8-egg phase. One evening before Christmas, some of our people were bored and started such a GA run. I was skeptical at first, but it turned out to be quite fun. Apart from that factor, I don't see any reasons at all for 10 man raids, but many against them. If you want to do it independently from the current raids (so Karazhan-style), the opportunity has passed a long time ago. A 10-man before GA wouldn't have been such a bad idea as a transition from 5-man dungeons to the real 20-man raids, but there's little point in introducing something like that now after 1.5 years. And bringing such a raid located in progress somewhere after GA will cause nothing but drama and problems when raids have to split. As for the current raids offered in a reduced size, that's an even worse idea. It will never be possible to balance two versions to the same difficulty (and even if it's only because you'd need to find 9 people who don't fail instead of 19), many of the current mechanics are simply impossible to translate to 10 people (SD have already been mentioned) and in the end, it just causes burnout or worse. WoW is the prime example of what happens if you offer the same raids in several versions: when they started it in WotLK, it led to super-swift burnout, in Cataclysm it broke the larger raids and now in WoD the step back to 25-man Mythic mode obviously breaks many guilds due to the roster boss. A great display of how not to do it. | |} ---- ^ (edited text a bit for clarity) We like the stability of having a single raid size. As such, we are unlikely to create additional raid sizes any time soon. If additions were made, it is much more likely to utilize flex tech to allow players to bring varying #s of players to do battle. | |} ---- ---- it is a boss that drops special runes. It has better drops then GA/DS depending on the difficulty setting. But it just ain't worth the hassle. And when you have completed DS and GA, and then enter this single room, it's bland and boring Edited January 5, 2016 by Olivar | |} ---- ---- There's already so much content in this game for players that don't have raid gear, meaningful content needs to be added for raiders outside of raid times, if the adventures were turned into 10 man challenges that dropped a few pure/divine majors on the last boss that might be content people could be interested in. But again any content like that would have to be balanced against each separate instance so there's not just the "quickest/easiest" for time vs reward instance run and all the others ignored (like people generally only run Infestation for the expedition contract) OR they could even be madedaily instances that can only be done once a day so people have to run them all etc. | |} ---- I'm not sure this is really true. I feel like unless you like Housing, RP, or PvP (and even that gets stale), there isn't a lot for nonraiders to do unless you count repeatedly grinding dailies. I guess WB trains but I get the feeling most people only do those for contracts or gearing up for raiding. Before I started raiding, there was even a point I reached where things were getting stale and I would have had to make my own endgame so to speak. If they made Vet Adventures worthwhile (whether as 5 man or 10 man), it would most likely be treated like Vet Dungeons where everyone only does the bosses and skips as much as possible. I don't think there's much Carbine can do about that yet. Edited January 5, 2016 by Spider Bro Jenkins | |} ---- ---- ---- I don't mind dying. I just dislike hearing Holocrypt guy so I turn it off. B) Edited January 5, 2016 by Spider Bro Jenkins | |} ---- Well, there's lots of stuff to do. The problem is that it's very easy to very quickly get your toon progressed to the point that non if it is worthwhile any more. I'm pretty sure you could pretty much max your character out in pre-raid gear just by doing contracts and world bosses. Jump on the WB train for a week or two, and you're done . . . The only reason that raids stay relevant for longer is their very nature of being repeated over and over again for months on end making small steps forward in progression. But this is the kind of thing that non-raiders don't like. It's a problem- I don't know how you can create the kind of content that will keep non-raiders engaged for months at a time. I'd suggested at one point (and then deleted it) and idea where you could offer real raid bosses as a boss-in-a-box one month at a time. So for one month, everyone gets access to x-89. Then next month, x-89 goes away and is replaced by Kuralak. Then next month Phagemaw. This would always provide something new and fresh for non-raiders, utilize existing content that is already there, and allow people who can't do structured raiding a chance to see the content. They could drop purple ilvl 100 items. But I think there are probably downsides to this too, so I'm not sure. That's why I deleted it the first time I wrote it out. | |} ---- I just remember the first time I died in the game, and heard the guy say something, and I kept laughing that I died again on purpose to hear if it was a one time thing. It's little things like that that made me fall in love with this game. Not bad of an idea, it would get people into the raiding scene at least. Weekly lockout I assume? Sort of like my idea of wings and have to progress wing a prior to wing b for the week. Edited January 5, 2016 by Orrestes | |} ---- Yeah, that was my thought. At least one problem is I really don't think you could have a boss like Ohmna in there- I think final bosses might have to be reserved for full clears. And System Daemons would just be too much. But I could even see something like Limbo being there, just tuned down for dungeon gear. I could really see non-raiders digging something like Limbo. I don't think it could be all the bosses. Maybe (of the ones I've experienced) X-89, Kuralak (I think if non-raiders had a month to work on it, they could get the organization down), Phagemaw, Prototypes, and Limbo. I'd leave out Convergence, Ohmna, System Demons, and Lettuce (I know Lettuce isn't that hard, but it does seem like there's a lot of different jobs going on- seems it would be hard to pug). | |} ---- Limbo as currently is, yes. Limbo as it was when first came out in 20man, no. Limbo is super easy right now because problems with telegraphs and falling through the floor. If people can't do Lettuce, than how do you expect people to do the rest of Datascape other than the mini's. Lettuce is by far the easiest learning curve fight in DS (I'm not counting the current iteration of Limbo). Why you usually see guilds that just downed SD, go 4/9 a couple weeks later. Idk, about tuning down fights for lesser gear. The rewards would have to be changed to drop iLvl 90 gear. Might as well make world bosses be instanced (I know, broken record from me but still, it's a great idea!) | |} ---- Well, this is boss-in-a-box for non-raiders. Limbo as it is *suppsosed* to be done could be dooable if you toned down the damage of the crap that drops through the floor. I guess I see Limbo as being one of those encounters that non-raiders would fine really fun even if it was "dumbed down". I don't see this being the case for a lot of other raid encounters, where I think you lose the cool factor by dumbing it down. With Limbo, there's a lot to appreciate about it that really doesn't depend on getting hammered by bees and adds :D But Limbo may be an outlier. I haven't experienced enough of DS to know. I will admit that when I first experiened Limbo, my first thought was "It's a shame non-raiders won't see this one". Anyway, even if you leave DS out of it, you could presently rotate the first four bosses of GA as boss-in-a-box encounters on a monthly basis, and that could make some of the current content more accessible to non-raiders. | |} ---- I think this is an excellent idea, except leave the current loot table as it is. I mean, if 20 people coordinate to get this boss down (and not zerged like World Bosses), then they should be rewarded the same as if they entered GA normally. They downed it, they earned it. | |} ---- I'll just say one more thing on this topic. It's great to hear, but after hearing the same lines over and over, it gets old. I've had fun moments where it said I've been dying a lot when it was the first time I died on an alt, and such. Most of my hate comes from server lag in beta (everyone was complaining about it, so I know it wasn't just me). Then there's the people who resort to insulting you if you dare ever complain about it ever. Like apparently, there was this addon that muted him that I didn't hear about until after Holocrypt guy was taken away in PTR. Like maybe if people advertise that instead of being a jerk, it wouldn't have gotten removed in the first place. On that note, I've helped a few people turn it off since F2P. I actually think this would be a great idea! Edited January 5, 2016 by Spider Bro Jenkins | |} ---- And this is where I have an issue. Part of the challenge of raiding is progression. Giving someone the same gear after they essentially skipped bosses isn't fair to the people who devoted time to PROGRESS through the instance. I think there should be some kind of "penalty" if you want to call it that. | |} ---- How many bosses are engaged and PROGRESSed through to buy 116 BOEs from the AH? | |} ---- This is why I was thinking purple ilvl 100. It's still really good gear, but if you are skipping trash and not having to fight your way through other bosses, losing a rube slot seems fair to me. But I'm doubtful this would happen anyway. It's just brainstorming :) | |} ---- Except the BIG difference being there's almost no point to raiders doing most of that content. Currently the only thing that's kinda worth doing as a raider is grinding dungeons for glory to buy rune bags to get majors. Now, this IMO isn't completely bad, I think it was actually a great design choice to have SOMETHING for raiders to do to progress out of raids, the rewards just feel too random for a lot of people. I think having the pure/divine major set foci actually drop from bosses (from possibly revamped veteran adventures) to roll on would feel better. The first time I bought pure bags I bought 10 and didn't even get a minor, from that point on I was like stuff that! The only reason I bought more was I've got all the glory gear I wanted, I then bought about 15-20 I think and ended up with a few minors and majors which actually felt rewarding. You can't just put content in for people that doesn't have some meaningful reward to them and expect people to be excited to do it. | |} ----